Re: Header & Logo Redesign

Sorry, this was a bit arbitrary. We had a democratic vote on the old design and the one that was chosen was a majority vote.
I hope this is not a shape of things to come ie, changes made because you like them and not necessarily what this community wants.
This is the slippery slope that TAAB went down and what led to the exodus from the old site.

And for the millionth time, this site is NOT a democracy.  Do I really have to say it again?  A democracy is NOT an efficient way to run a website.

Sorry Nathan but you have just plummeted in my opinion of you. That is exactly the stance TAAB Took with us. Shame on you.

The whole concept of this site was a website by the community for the community with our input being listened to and much more democracy than the old site. WE ARE A COMMUNITY and our voices should be heard and considered, otherwise it is not a COMMUNITY but a DICTATORSHIP.

Bring back the old Logo please and if you want to change it hold another selection process for us to decide on.

Very bad form.

Last edited by Si665 (April 8, 2009 (10:59am))

Re: Header & Logo Redesign

Buttons seem to be working in chrome, not sure if anybody did anything or If Chrome is just messed up (probably the latter mini/rolleyes). Anywho, It's looking pretty good, I guess...

Re: Header & Logo Redesign

Si665 wrote:

Sorry, this was a bit arbitrary.

Again, we had to change the logo due to the trademark concern.

Si665 wrote:

We had a democratic vote on the old design and the one that was chosen was a majority vote.

Actually, a minority of the community voted for the old logo.  Though roughly a 2/3 majority of those who voted in the brief time the poll was up did vote in favor of it.  There weren't any good alternatives at the time.

Si665 wrote:

Bring back the old Logo please and if you want to change it hold another selection process for us to decide on.

Very bad form.

I wrote:

Why did I not make this a completely public discussion?  Nathan is right that this would have slowed it down (imagine if we tried to get the community's input on every aspect of, for example, the film directory) but honestly I don't think this approach has served us well in the past, either.  When discussion of a new title for the site was brought up, a minority of us pointed out that "Brickfilmers.com" was a liability, but because the majority wanted it, it won.  The minority was right, and it ended up in an extra legal mess with Brickfilms.  On another occasion, Schlaeps asked the community if they wanted IE compatibility on BiM.  Again, a small minority of us insisted that this is important because it is the most used browser, but the majority of the community said they didn't care because they use FireFox.  Now we're having to deal with frequent complaints about the site not working properly in IE because more than 20% of our members use IE.  This community is too large to publicly discuss every design decision for the site, but we'll do our best to at least be receptive.

I'd add that I got as much feedback as I could from the beta testing team, and also visited chat a few times to see how people felt about the logo before making this decision.  Nobody complained when Schlaeps began designing the directory all on his own without input from the community because it'd be ridiculously impractical to try to design an entire site democratically, (for the same reason that a Republic tends to be more efficient than a pure Democracy) and I've put together a large panel of members to ask for input.  Nathan called it an 'Oligarchy,' personally I think the analogy of a Republic fits better although there was no formal election of the people for this panel; I based the selections on how well these people are respected in the community.

In all honesty, Brickfilms was never run democratically before TaaB (with the exception of the short-lived and largely unsuccessful ministry system) but we had good, competent leadership so that didn't present a problem.  TaaB's problem wasn't that she was undemocratic but that she had no knowledge of the community and no desire to learn from the knowledge of others.

http://i.imgur.com/wcmcdmf.png

Re: Header & Logo Redesign

What trademark concern ? Have Lego said anything ? Wait until if or when they do then consider changing it. Don't panic over ' What ifs '

And I am sorry, what is the difference between using a design that looks a little like a Lego minifig or one that looks a little like a Lego brick ?
I see no difference from a legal point of view. Lego never got their act together when it came to copyrighting their designs, that is why Mega Bloks and the other Lego clone companies can exist without fear of legal action from Lego. We are not portraying ourselves as Lego Partners or Lego themselves. They have absolutely no reason to try anything legal against us. I am sure they don't care either way.

I don't care what you do in the background programming wise, that is down to you. Few of us know a lot about heavy site coding we just want it to work. We appreciate the work you are doing and trust your programming skills.

I don't care how my house is built as long as it is built solidly. But I do want a say in the way that it is decorated as it is me that will be one of the occupants.

But when this site was created it was aimed at the community FOR and BY the community.  Please do not loose that aspect it is very very important that the community has input in these things. Otherwise it will just become another Brickfilms.com dictatorship where they don't give a rats-ass what we say think or do..

All you had to do was say,

'We feel we need to change the logo of the site due to xyz, we have put a temporary logo in place and we will be having a design brainstorming session soon for you to choose what design you want'

That way through simple tact and discretion we would have felt involved in OUR Community and we could have our input / say in due course.

This logo issue might seem a trivial thing to you, but it is our identity. It is important, we should have a say. Not a little feedback from the chat room which not many frequent, or the beta testing team, it should be all of us that have a say on our identity.

Last edited by Si665 (April 8, 2009 (11:14am))

Re: Header & Logo Redesign

Have Lego said anything ? Wait until if or when they do then consider changing it. Don't panic over ' What ifs '

BiM was built on the philosophy of doing things the right way.  Doing something because you can get away with it does not fit that philosophy.  Operating on borrowed time does not fit that philosophy.

Re: Header & Logo Redesign

This logo issue might seem a trivial thing to you, but it is our identity.

Absolutely not.  The strength, purpose, and identity of BiM is the people who are here.  It would be just as meaningful a place with no logo.

Re: Header & Logo Redesign

But if the people do not feel that they have a voice that will be listened to then they will leave

Have you guys learned nothing from the whole Brickfilms debacle ?

Prior to this change (which isn't the issue it is the principle behind it that has wound be up) I felt like this was a community and I was part of it.

Now after replies like Nathans etc, it just feels like a website that I am a visitor too and not something I can be an integral part of. Visitors here can talk to each other in the forums, but this 'community' is running the risk of just being a 'website' with no heart.

We are the community and out input and thoughts should be considered and where practical acted upon, not rode over roughshod.

In none of the replies I have (granted skimmed through due to time constraints), have I seen a post that says 'Sorry if we have caused offence' there is an air of we've done it, live with it in the posts above.

Last edited by Si665 (April 8, 2009 (11:29am))

Re: Header & Logo Redesign

If some people were to leave over a logo that was decided on by a large group of mature, respected members and is still being evaluated while we consider other possibilities, that would be such a ridiculous and nitpicky reason to leave that I would be glad to have these people gone.  As I said several times already in this thread, we're open to suggestions and are working very hard to be receptive to the community.  However, whether or not to follow trademark laws isn't something we're willing to put up to a vote.  If somebody were to present a brilliant new logo, or even an acceptable variation one of the preexisting ones, we'd consider it!  And we're already looking at other possibilities, too.

http://i.imgur.com/wcmcdmf.png

Re: Header & Logo Redesign

Thank you, that is good to hear, perhaps this should have been clarified at the start ?

Re: Header & Logo Redesign

Si665 wrote:

In none of the replies I have (granted skimmed through due to time constraints), have I seen a post that says 'Sorry if we have caused offence' there is an air of we've done it, live with it in the posts above.

If you can't read the thread, then maybe you should hold your grand accusations instead of saying stuff like this!  I've already said several times that we're open to suggestions for improvements, I haven't told the community to just shove it.

A few examples:

I'm sure that, like any change, this will be an adjustment for some members (take Facebook for example, it seems whenever they go through a redesign about 95% of the membership hates it for about a month afterward) but we wanted to get a new design in place as quickly as we could once it was agreed upon in order to make the transition go as easily as possible.  That having been said, we do want to be receptive to you guys and we're always open to suggestions for ways this site could be improved.

Regarding the logo: Some of us are pretty happy with it, I understand it's important to people who aren't happy about it too, though.  We're going to continue looking at our options.

We're leaning away from the orange as it really clashes with the rest of the text on the banner.  But we're still exploring a few ideas.

That having been said, I'm open to trying to incorporate some color into this to make it "pop" a little more.  I'm not sure it looks better with more colors, though.

http://i.imgur.com/wcmcdmf.png

Re: Header & Logo Redesign

If somebody were to present a brilliant new logo, or even an acceptable variation one of the preexisting ones, we'd consider it!

Speaking of learning a lesson from Brickfilms.com, this is exactly how things got done.  One day Z cranked out a theme for the forums at the new site and showed it to me.  It was awesome, so we went with it.

Don't confuse community involvement with community commentary.  People providing their opinions is all well and good but a big sack of opinions gets nothing done.

BiM (and brickfilms before) is shaped by people who contribute, not people who just say what they want and complain when they don't get it.

In other words, if you don't like the logo, make a better one.  If enough people like it it'll get used.  I'm not even involved in BiM leadership in any way and I can tell you that it's the truth.

Re: Header & Logo Redesign

Si, you really like to debate don't you? And Brickme, are you saying that Smeagol doesn't know what he is talking about? Blasphemy!

Last edited by Spudster (April 8, 2009 (11:55am))

Re: Header & Logo Redesign

I'm retired.

That means I tell people what they should do without actually doing anything myself.

Re: Header & Logo Redesign

I'm gonna complain more and then when Rev makes a second post call him a hypocrite for complaining about not getting what he wants.

D:

Re: Header & Logo Redesign

I don't complain.  Only opine.

Re: Header & Logo Redesign

It's nice of people to judge whether or not I "know what I'm talking about" before we've had a chance to even finish the website.

On a side note, "brickme," everything you've ever posted sounds a lot like Aled Owen, a member we've had a lot of trouble with in this community over the years.  If you're not Aled I'm sorry for asking about it, but currently there are a lot of things that match up and I don't have any way of knowing you're not him.  (I guess if you finish that film you're working on we'll know for sure. mini/wink  Aled was never a very active brickfilmer.)

http://i.imgur.com/wcmcdmf.png

Re: Header & Logo Redesign

It's not my place to pry into private information, so don't worry about it.  If you're an active, contributing member of the community that's good enough for me and I'm certainly not asking you to leave.  Just wanted to explain why I may have shown some irritation at a few of your coding suggestions earlier, I don't want to judge you like that.

-Sméagol

http://i.imgur.com/wcmcdmf.png

Re: Header & Logo Redesign

I'm Aled Owen.

-Dave

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/quakefilms/myspace/Brickfilms/whitewallssig.jpg

Re: Header & Logo Redesign

I am Aled Owen.

Re: Header & Logo Redesign

The "democracy not being effective for a website" debate has already been addressed by others and I couldn't put it any better, so I'm just going to address the matter of copyright, trademark and patents.

First, the trademark and patent for the "stud-and-tube" plastic brick has expired, which enabled rival companies to use copy the design for their own purposes.  This also allows for the use of the "brick" motif in fan-made sites.  The LEGO Company no longer has a monopoly over the plastic building brick market, which is arguably a good thing, because this forces the LEGO Company to keep creating quality products to compete against rival companies.

Second, the minifigure is trademarked.  That trademark is still in effect, and the LEGO Company pursues breaches of trademark very strongly. As stated before, LEGOfan.org is officially sanctioned and sponsored by the LEGO Company, which is why it can have graphical representations of minifigures in their logo.  This is also why they are allowed to use "LEGO" in their website URL.  I was given special permission to use the GO MINIMAN GO logo in my 30 Years video as long as is was used ONLY for my video.  There was actually an issue with YouTube who questioned whether or not I had the rights to use the logo; I had to send YouTube a signed letter from the LEGO company itself to assure YouTube.

Instead of getting on the wrong side of the LEGO Company and sticking with the old illegal logo, we decided to avoid conflict and change it.  As BricksInMotion becomes more popular and more public, it was only a matter of time for the LEGO Company to take notice of us.

I am not making this up.  I have worked directly with the LEGO company on related matters, as stated above.  I also contribute to the popular LEGO blog Brothers-Brick.com, where matters like this have also come up.

The generic plastic brick is no longer trademarked.  The minifigure is trademarked.  The old logo was illegal.  These are facts.  We did what was best for BricksInMotion.  The last thing this budding website needs is a legal battle with the LEGO Company.