Re: Transformer 4 running time.

Max Butcher wrote:

Psst! Transformers has never been more complex than "ROBOT SMASH!" True - Michael Bay somehow manages to screw even that up. But I always find it hilarious when people treat Transformers as a sacred property. Though, maybe its just because I didn't grow up with it. I used to think that RTD era Doctor Who was the height of humanities artistic achievement.

Max, You may find it hilarious.  But 1) I think you're right that the passsion for Transformers is a generational thing primarily among the 1980s youth, and 2) Believe it or not, Transformers is more than a "Robot Smash" series, thought giant mecha fighting a war against each other is one of the series' primary elements.  Now, know where I'm coming from: I've always loved robots and so when Transformers came upon the scnee, I became one of the franchise's most hardcore fans on the planet.  I own over 1000 Transformers toys, most with their original boxes, all the Generation 1 (1984-1990) DVDs, and hundreds of comics, including 2 or more of each of the original 80-issue run (in the U.K., there were 322 issues, each 1/2 the size of the American comics, and half of those reprinting the U.S. storyline.)

Anyway, early Transformer episodes were gimmicky often with a group of Autobots sent on a mission, the Decepticons thrwarting them with something or a series of things, and the Autobots in the group each having the special abilities required to overcome the Decepticons' plan.  Fans knew each character's speciall abilities and weaknesses.  But important things began to develop:

1) Optimus Prime became a role model, always representing doing the right thing.  He always took the honorable road when faced with a hard decision.  His motto: "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings."  Prime also taught us self-sacrifice: he would give himself up or risk himself for the good of others.  He taught us lessons that work as adults.  I actually met his voice actor, Peter Cullen.  He really wears a coyboy hat!  Comparisons to John Wayne were intentional.  Cullen himself believed in the concept for standing up for your beliefs and for others.

2) The series explored social and philosophical issues.  The most apparent is about the exploitation of resources or other people/ cultures.  The Deceptcions themselves kind of resembled something of a mix between Nazis, who believed other races to be inferior and expendible, and imperialists.  The issues weren't as deep as a series such as Doctor Who, but they did get there sometimes, especially as teh series progressed.  "The God Gambit" was a parable about not exploiting the religious beliefs of others.  "The Golden Lagoon" had a message about respect for nature.  The comic book explored such issues even more closely.  Max, one of the U.K.'s greatest gifts to us was the writer of the British TF comic series int he mid-80s, Simon Furman.  He came to America and wrote the final 1/3 of the original 80-issue comic run in the USA.  In one issue, released after Flag Burning was an issue addressed by our Supreme Court, he addressed the issue in comic #67, where the U.S. flag gave humans the drive to press on and fight Decepticons, even when nearly defeated.  A British writer made me proud to be American.  Another issue dealt with euthanasia and when is life worth living?  Some of the final issues dealt with the concept of peace by strength or getting along with each other?

3) The Autobots often prevailed because they formed an alliance with the humans.  The human spirit and knowledge of Earth, taught the Autobots many lessons, lessons that unlearned, would have led to their defeat.  Teamwork was a similar theme, as was loyalty, never giving up on those important to us, even when they turn on you, and treating both friend and enemy with respect.  In the third season, the Quintessons, who created both Autobot and Decepticon, were more afraid of humans than their own creations, who drove them from Cybertron.  The Autobots' associations with humans have changed their programming, making them unpredictible.  Often times, it was humanity's will power, ingenuity, or creativity that saved the day.  Of course, Spike still often lugged around one of the Autobots' guns and said he'd go fight the Decepticons himself, whenver the Autobots were about to give up!  It reminds me of the Borg in Star Trek, who would never be able to defeat humankind because no matter how much they adapt, we'd always come up with new ideas.

4) The robots had personality.  Besides the fact that they were giant robots fighting a civil war, this is what made fans out of so many.  They were cool, even trendy, as they were inquizitive about Earth culture.  Often a character had an ironic trait.  For instance, Silverbolt, the leader of the Aerialbots, is a jet who's afraid of heights.  Optimus Prime made him the leader so he'd have something else to worry about.  Of course, in the Michael Bay movies, all this was sucked out.

I could talk about this stuff forever, sooo sorry.  TFs have a deep, if slightly inconsistant backstory spanning 12 million years, in which I've deeply immersed myself.  It's rich and so it makes the series addictive, just as Star Wars has a deep world where so many fans have immersed themselves.  I wrote everything I learned down in a notebook, including names of all the toys, episodes, backstory, tech spec stats, etc.  This was in the mid 1980s, before there was a World Wide Web, and no one had this information collected in one place.  So, you see, this is my passion.  Max, you may be right, that it's a silly thing to get psyched up about.  But it's nice for each of us to have a passion.  It's Star Wars/ Star Trek/ Dr Who with many.  I noticed a trend with tween to college aged males getting this way about My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic.  It seems as perplexing to me as TFs may be to you, Max.  I don't have to get it.  It's their thing.  More power to them, since it takes a bit of coming out of a comfort zone for a boy to enjoy what is stereotypically considered a "girls' toy".

Max, maybe it all makes no sense to you, and that's totally fine.  I just wanted to share with you what Transformers means to me, and that despite how the series looks at a glance, it is more than a lot of robots bashing each other and cliffhanger situations (even though there's a lot of that, too).  There's more to it than meets the eye.  I like the two-part "The Key To Vector Sigma" and a time travel episode that should be watched only after it, "War Dawn".  If you do want to give it a shot, these are some good episodes, mostly action, but with some subtle moral lessons too.

None of this is a criticism of what you said, either; it's just my view of TFs, and why I love them so much! 

Oh, and by the way, I'm also glad that MGM retained the intermission in 2001: A Space Odyssey, one of my favorite movies.  I really wish that they'd release the 154-minute version, and one with the alternate Alex North soundtrack score, which Kubrick threw aside (after all of North's work for the film) for classical music.

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"None practice tolerance less frequently than those who most loudly preach it."

Re: Transformer 4 running time.

OH

MY

GLOB

In all seriousness, in every incarnation of Transformers that isn't the Michael Bay movie, it does have a lot of additional weight, particularly in Generation One and in Transformers: Cybertron. I mean, you can't forget that the show exists to peddle the merchandise, but at least the show normally has a decent story and characters behind it. Like I said, I have a great deal of appreciation for the first Bayverse movie, because it's a genuinely good blockbuster. The show is different. Characters like Vector Prime (from the Cybertron series) add tremendous weight and the show really resonated for me when I was younger.

I think all these things - whether they be Transformers, RTD era Doctor Who, or anything else for that matter - should be taken into account based on the intention behind them. For instance, Pacific Rim was intended to be a pantomime, not an Oscar winner, and it was a fantastic pantomime. But, if you judge it against Academy Award, Best Picture criteria, of course it's not that kind of masterpiece, and it's foolish to try and judge it that way. Similarly, a movie like Y Tu Mama Tambien is good as a social commentary and easily Best Picture material, but would flop at a multiplex because it's not the sort of movie you would want to watch with your mates on a Friday night.

So with Transformers, so what if it's about "robot smash"? Even if that is all that's too Transformers, Bayverse or tv show, the real question you should be asking is whether it does "robot smash" well. The first movie does it very well, and the tv show goes above and beyond and creates something even more worthwhile.

Wow, didn't mean to write a big block of text like that.

BTW if the Quintessons and/or Unicron aren't in T4 or any of the next films then I'm so done mini/lol I also want to see a Transformers movie entirely set on Cybertron, like the recent videogames.

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"Nothing goes down 'less I'm involved. No nuggets. No onion rings. No nothin'. A cheeseburger gets sold in the park, I want in! You got fat while we starved on the streets...now it's my turn!" -Harley Morenstein

Re: Transformer 4 running time.

Jampot, some nice G1 episodes set on cybertron include, Season 1: Divide & Conquer, The Ultimate Doom (3-part), season 2: The Search For Alpha Trion, The Key To Vector Sigma, War Dawn, Revenge of Bruticus, Season 3: Dweller in the Depths, cybertron is a setting for parts of many eps.  This is off the top of my head and there may be others that come to me later.

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Re: Transformer 4 running time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2THVvshvq0Q

The video above describes an average bay film. Watch if you dare. (Contains some language)

Re: Transformer 4 running time.

That's a really great deconstruction. I've sort of been aware of his use of space but I never would have been able to articulate it like that.

EDIT: Checked the reviews and it's supposed to be terrible.

Spoiler (click to read)

No Quintessons, no Unicron. Galvatron is made by evil humans, but he's been manipulating them and there's a pointless battle in Beijing, followed by Optimus taking a 'cyberforming' seed and heading off the find the Creators, who sent Lockdown to capture Optimus in a sub-plot you won't care about.

Could've been avoided if they'd stuck to the source material and actually thought about making a decent story.

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"Nothing goes down 'less I'm involved. No nuggets. No onion rings. No nothin'. A cheeseburger gets sold in the park, I want in! You got fat while we starved on the streets...now it's my turn!" -Harley Morenstein

Re: Transformer 4 running time.

I went to my local Target store, and by "local" I mean 45 minutes away, and they FINALLY released Transformers: Animated Season 3!  All the things that never were released that I always wanted to see are starting to fall into place!

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"None practice tolerance less frequently than those who most loudly preach it."

Re: Transformer 4 running time.

http://media.comicbook.com/uploads1/2014/12/transformers-age-of-extinction-2014-awards-for-your-consideratio-114801.jpg

Re: Transformer 4 running time.

"Thanks.  "Best Picture of the Year"!  Feeling sickly so I needed a good laugh!

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"None practice tolerance less frequently than those who most loudly preach it."

Re: Transformer 4 running time.

Its missing Mark Wahlberg for best actor. mini/lol

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Re: Transformer 4 running time.

Judging by that picture it looks as though either all the actors got really bad spray-tans for this movie, or the person in charge of colour correction deserves to be fired.

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Re: Transformer 4 running time.

I think they also want an Oscar for best color correction/spray tans!

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"None practice tolerance less frequently than those who most loudly preach it."

Re: Transformer 4 running time.

Michael Bay always has color correction blasting all the bluish tints into the teal range, and the skin tones into the orange range, to create a distilled, teal and orange color palette. It's the laziest way to make sure your film's color palette looks consistent.

The funny thing is how he is a proponent of shooting on film, then destroys the colors with post-production color changes like this.

http://i.imgur.com/wcmcdmf.png

Re: Transformer 4 running time.

Transformers 1 is a perfectly acceptable mindless action film. Transformers 2 and 3 are two of the most offensively bad movies ever made, as far as I'm concerned.

Transformers 4 is awful, no doubt about that, but in a different league than the previous two. It is so fascinatingly inept and has such a lack of any pretense of trying to be something better than it actually is that it becomes absolutely hilarious and somehow even watchable. The first time I saw Age of Extinction, I had to see it again the following night and the night after that; it's some of the most fun I've ever had at making fun of a movie while watching it.

That said, Stanley Tucci manages to turn in a surprisingly great performance in spite of how ridiculous and over-the-top his role was written; it's the only genuinely positive thing I can say about the film as a whole.

Last edited by MindGame (December 10, 2014 (03:14am))

Re: Transformer 4 running time.

Mindgame, To people who grew up with the original Transformers: TF1 is a disgrace.

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"None practice tolerance less frequently than those who most loudly preach it."

Re: Transformer 4 running time.

HoldingOurOwn wrote:

Mindgame, To people who grew up with the original Transformers: TF1 is a disgrace.

I don't know if everybody sees movies that way. At the least, it's complicated. As a Star Trek fan, I have a lot of problems with the JJ Abrams Star Trek films because he took a franchise that was this great, unique kind of storytelling and changed it into something big, dumb, loud, and missing everything that made Star Trek unique and interesting. But I think they're pretty good filmmaking in a sci-fi action-adventure film sort of way. As big, dumb, loud movies go.

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Re: Transformer 4 running time.

Besides the storyline, I don't even think the filmmaking is good.  Michael Bay knows nothing about having a point-of-reference.  To him you have to have the camera moving at all times and not focus on anything is "awesome".

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"None practice tolerance less frequently than those who most loudly preach it."

Re: Transformer 4 running time.

Action wise, its slopy. You don't know what the look at, with all the explosions and gunk.

It was one of the most critically paned movies of the year, yet Paramount is sending it in for oscar consideration in all categories. Tech wise, like visual effects and sound mixing, it may earn some nominations. But best director? Screenplay? No way.

Re: Transformer 4 running time.

funmiproductions wrote:

Action wise, its slopy. You don't know what the look at, with all the explosions and gunk.

It was one of the most critically paned movies of the year

Yeah, the most critically-panned movie of the year AND the highest-grossing movie of the year. Age of Extinction really killed two birds with one stone on that one!

Shame on you guys for going and falling for Bay's old tricks a third time around! mini/no Now look what you've done, you monsters! Curse you all! mini/tongue

Last edited by Mickey (December 12, 2014 (09:52am))

Have you seen a big-chinned boy?

Re: Transformer 4 running time.

HoldingOurOwn wrote:

Mindgame, To people who grew up with the original Transformers: TF1 is a disgrace.

I don't think it's really fair to compare a live action film to an animated television series.
I mean we can't really expect a shot for shot recreation of the pilot episode in live action, now can we?
People want to see their favorite characters outside of the animated series out in the real world....
And, they want to be entertained for a couple of hours....nothing more, nothing less.

Sometimes, people want to watch a good movie. So...they'll go watch *insert name of classic movie here*.
But there are times when people just want to watch mindless fantasy just to get away from real life for a short while.
That said, I don't take Michael Bay's films too seriously. They're just entertainment.
A number of Bay's films are the film equivalent to junk food on a weekend.
Granted, both are not very good for you, but dang, both are so enjoyable in small amounts and in moderation.

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Re: Transformer 4 running time.

dewfilms wrote:

Sometimes, people want to watch a good movie. So...they'll go watch *insert name of classic movie here*.
But there are times when people just want to watch mindless fantasy just to get away from real life for a short while.

Now, I haven't seen this movie, so take this with not a grain, but a chunk of salt. I'm a big fan of occasional mindless entertainment, I enjoy an action movie every once and a while, or a stupid comedy; but I hate being advertised to when I've already paid for the media I'm ingesting. The last thing I want to see when I've already paid $12 to see a movie is  tons of blatant advertising filling up the screen, it's borderline offensive, and one of the main reason I don't watch these movies.