Re: THAC XII - Starts NOW!

I didn’t finish my entry. And I really wanted to finish, but my planned and essential ending was too much to handle in the short period of time, I had done very little editing, and also something else got in my way. I began to think: What’s the point if my entry wasn’t even going to be ranked? I was (and still am) 99.9% sure that my entry would have not gotten in the Top 10, so I began to ask myself what was the point, and I really couldn’t find a reason other than “Well it’s fun for the sake of the contest!” While yeah, it’s fun and you can say you finished in time, but it’d be nice to get at least some representation of how you placed. And the thing is: I really liked my entry idea. I liked everything I had filmed so far and I wanted the ending to be good. So why wouldn’t I just wait and spend more time on it afterwards and make it good instead of rushing for the sake of the contest and have it turn out horribly? That was my dilemma and if you can’t tell, I strongly disagree with only ranking the Top 10, and many others disagree as well. I get it; it takes time. I was a judge for BRAWL and although it wasn’t as many entries, it was still time consuming. And I’m not saying you should rank ALL of them, just maybe the Top 20 or 25. And it seems a bit unfair because the people who are going to rank in the Top 10 are the people who have had a good amount of experience and are well-known members, so you’re just basically pushing away all the newer members that had fairly decent stories, but may have slightly lacked in the animation front, or vice versa. I'm sorry if this comes off as harsh, it just is something that has bothered me.

Re: THAC XII - Starts NOW!

Chris W. wrote:

I didn’t finish my entry. And I really wanted to finish, but my planned and essential ending was too much to handle in the short period of time, I had done very little editing, and also something else got in my way. I began to think: What’s the point if my entry wasn’t even going to be ranked? I was (and still am) 99.9% sure that my entry would have not gotten in the Top 10, so I began to ask myself what was the point, and I really couldn’t find a reason other than “Well it’s fun for the sake of the contest!” While yeah, it’s fun and you can say you finished in time, but it’d be nice to get at least some representation of how you placed. And the thing is: I really liked my entry idea. I liked everything I had filmed so far and I wanted the ending to be good. So why wouldn’t I just wait and spend more time on it afterwards and make it good instead of rushing for the sake of the contest and have it turn out horribly? That was my dilemma and if you can’t tell, I strongly disagree with only ranking the Top 10, and many others disagree as well. I get it; it takes time. I was a judge for BRAWL and although it wasn’t as many entries, it was still time consuming. And I’m not saying you should rank ALL of them, just maybe the Top 20 or 25. And it seems a bit unfair because the people who are going to rank in the Top 10 are the people who have had a good amount of experience and are well-known members, so you’re just basically pushing away all the newer members that had fairly decent stories, but may have slightly lacked in the animation front, or vice versa. I'm sorry if this comes off as harsh, it just is something that has bothered me.

I agree with the statement regarding ranking. 20-25 seems very reasonable, and prevents that whole "fight for last place." If the judges would consider doing this I think many more people (10-15 to be precise) would come out feeling like they have improved and accomplished something. If we take a look at THAC, it's not as much about the competition and winning as it is about learning and growing as a community. This is evident when we rank 10 even though there are only three prizes. Three places actually makes the most sense of all, because it brings up competition and only accepts the BEST. Just something to consider. mini/smile

Last edited by LiamG (January 4, 2015 (11:16pm))

Re: THAC XII - Starts NOW!

Ranking beyond the top 10 isn't going to happen, simple as that. This a recent site-wide policy for official Bricks in Motion contests. All entries still get posted to the forum. Seek out feedback there.

Re: THAC XII - Starts NOW!

There seems to be some confusion over why we've limited the rankings to 10 entries. It's not out of laziness, or a desire to save time. It comes from a genuine desire to have *good* judging decisions when we post them. It's because we want the judging results to be of higher quality, not lower. The problem is that after about 10th place, the quality of entries starts to blur into a range in which it is hard to distinguish one from another.

An allegory:

For the sake of argument, let's imagine that there is a celestial realm where intelligences greater than our own are able to objectively discern the quality of all THAC entries from 1st to 68th. They put the best film at the top of the pyramid, and the quality descends from there. And for some reason, they're terribly fond of Comic Sans. I suggest that such a determination would resemble this:

http://i.imgur.com/i3pjIUj.jpg

Now, someone with a keen eye might be able to determine the precise ranking of all the films by looking at this pyramid. But we are mere mortals, confined by the shackles of artistic subjectivity. We don't see the form itself, we grasp dimly at a manifestation of it as perceived by watching the films for ourselves. It's more like a shadow cast by the flame of human opinion onto the rocky wall of a cave:

http://i.imgur.com/YYJDQZW.jpg

Even if we wanted to give the lower rankings, we could not do it in a meaningful way. To TRY to give you some kind of rankings would ultimately only deceive and damage; animators below the top few rankings can't improve their ranking from one year to the next with any consistency, as previous THACs and other BIM contests have demonstrated.

I know that the desire for more rankings is really a desire for validation or feedback on your entry. That's understandable. But this ranking system is never going to give that to you. There is too much noise in the system below 10th place to yield results that we're confident are of high quality in their discernment. We don't want to cheat you like that. It is the equivalent of asking a magic 8 ball for validation of your THAC entry.

http://i.imgur.com/DRKBIQI.jpg

You don't want your film to be validated or recognized by a randomly determined number that is not even considered adequately meaningful by the people who came up with it. And that's the best we can give you in the form of rankings as subjective as 11th place in a contest full of creative, talented people. So instead, we've chosen to focus on celebrating the very finest entries, and the fact that all of you MADE A MOVIE in under 24 hours and had, we hope, a positive experience doing it. mini/smile

The only real feedback for people who are still growing and improving is feedback from human beings specifically watching your film and examining it for what you did well, and what could be improved upon. If you want more feedback, I encourage you to help be part of the solution by reviewing other THAC entries currently in the releases forum. Give them the sort of encouragement and critique that you'd like to receive for your own film! Together, we can make this a reality.

http://i.imgur.com/wcmcdmf.png

Re: THAC XII - Starts NOW!

That's a really good way to explain it.

Though, I do feel that the number of really good entries changes depending upon the contest and it should be scaled appropriately.  For instance, in this case I feel like 15 or perhaps 20 would be a better number fora THAC, since it has so many entries, although for brawl, which has fewer, 10 seems more appropriate.  But, for some contests, especially one with fewer entries, the list might be scaled down to something more along the lines of top 5 or top 3.  Of course, there's no going back on this current THAC.

Still, it is a good idea to have a cutoff someplace, at least it's not top 5 for this THAC.

Re: THAC XII - Starts NOW!

Could there be a few 'Special Mentions' that aren't to do with ranking perhaps? Like best newcomer, best comedy, best drama, best use of mod elements, best use of theme etc - particularly to encourage a wider range of takes on the theme. I know I've seen a few grumblings related to theme interpretation. Also such things could motivate people who feel they've got no hope of the top 10.

Last edited by BoatsAreRockable (January 5, 2015 (07:03am))

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Re: THAC XII - Starts NOW!

BoatsAreRockable wrote:

Could there be a few 'Special Mentions' that aren't to do with ranking perhaps? Like best newcomer, best comedy, best drama, best use of mod elements, best use of theme etc - particularly to encourage a wider range of takes on the theme. I know I've seen a few grumblings related to theme interpretation. Also such things could motivate people who feel they've got no hope of the top 10.

Again the point of the top 10 is to allow the judges to focus on the top tier entries. Fragmenting the submissions is a bad idea and a distraction. The encouragement to do something different is already there. No one ones to make a film similar to someone else's film. If you really want judges attention then make a good film. I have finished watching and judging all the entries and I think top 10 is more than fair for the entries.

Re: THAC XII - Starts NOW!

AquaMorph wrote:
BoatsAreRockable wrote:

Could there be a few 'Special Mentions' that aren't to do with ranking perhaps? Like best newcomer, best comedy, best drama, best use of mod elements, best use of theme etc - particularly to encourage a wider range of takes on the theme. I know I've seen a few grumblings related to theme interpretation. Also such things could motivate people who feel they've got no hope of the top 10.

Again the point of the top 10 is to allow the judges to focus on the top tier entries. Fragmenting the submissions is a bad idea and a distraction. The encouragement to do something different is already there. No one ones to make a film similar to someone else's film. If you really want judges attention then make a good film. I have finished watching and judging all the entries and I think top 10 is more than fair for the entries.

I think the top 10 is all that is necessary for ranking, but I would love to hear some "shout outs" or "honorable mentions" from judges for brickfilms not in the top ten.  It doesn't need to be anything formal, but a forum comment from a judge like "I also liked this film, that film, and some other film," would be a nice touch. Concentrating on judging the top 10 is most important though.

Re: THAC XII - Starts NOW!

I can't speak for the other judges, but when the judging is complete I plan on commenting on some entries, including some that might not place in the top ten. I think is all people can hope to expect. I firmly believe it shouldn't be any sort of requirement, though. People should seek out feedback from other forum members, and not just expect it to be handed to them by the judges.

Smeagol's explanation is perfect.

Re: THAC XII - Starts NOW!

"Submitted after deadline" by 4 minutes mini/lol

Re: THAC XII - Starts NOW!

Nathan Wells wrote:

I can't speak for the other judges, but when the judging is complete I plan on commenting on some entries, including some that might not place in the top ten. I think is all people can hope to expect. I firmly believe it shouldn't be any sort of requirement, though. People should seek out feedback from other forum members, and not just expect it to be handed to them by the judges.

Smeagol's explanation is perfect.


I suspect what you will present will more than appease me.  Thank you Nathan.    I have competed in 5 of the last 6 THACs and I have to say this is the best run THAC I have witnessed.  Congrats.  Perfectly run so far.  mini/smile I know that you and your team of judges will have a difficult time cutting the field to only 10 films.   I watched all of the entries and there are dozens of great quality films, possibly more than any year I have seen so far.  Picking the 10th spot will probably be more debated than the 1st and 2nd place.   Keep up the great work.  A+ so far. mini/smile

Last edited by thefourmonkeys (January 5, 2015 (09:40am))

Re: THAC XII - Starts NOW!

For all I know this question might have already been answered either here or elsewhere, but has there been a date set yet for when the results will be announced? (or at least a rough estimate as to how long it will be till then?)

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Re: THAC XII - Starts NOW!

A few hours into editing on Saturday night, there was an electrical cut, knocking off the internet until just a few hours ago. Although we didn't finish the entry in time, it was the first time in a LONG time that I felt motivated to make a brickfilm!
Next year, I pray there will be no more interruptions!

Re: THAC XII - Starts NOW!

Brickcrazy wrote:

For all I know this question might have already been answered either here or elsewhere, but has there been a date set yet for when the results will be announced? (or at least a rough estimate as to how long it will be till then?)

A date hasn't been set, but by the very latest I want THAC completely wrapped up by the end of January (winners announced, prizes sent). However, I do not think it will take that long. Judging for THAC is an involved process, so don't be surprised if it takes a few weeks.

Re: THAC XII - Starts NOW!

OK thanks. As far as the policy of limiting the results to a top ten, I think it is a good idea. As well as the points that were already made, most contests wouldn't even go that far. As to honorable mentions, I think just being in the list of entries is enough. Getting a film finished in under 24 hour is a feat in and of itself. After all, we're all just doing this for fun, right? mini/wink

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Re: THAC XII - Starts NOW!

Squid wrote:

That's a really good way to explain it.

Though, I do feel that the number of really good entries changes depending upon the contest and it should be scaled appropriately.  For instance, in this case I feel like 15 or perhaps 20 would be a better number fora THAC, since it has so many entries, although for brawl, which has fewer, 10 seems more appropriate.  But, for some contests, especially one with fewer entries, the list might be scaled down to something more along the lines of top 5 or top 3.

It doesn't work like that, hence my explanation. It doesn't really matter how many entries there are, it's still hard to distinguish one as better than another beyond around 10th place. This is supported consistently by the judging process in past BiM contests.

http://i.imgur.com/wcmcdmf.png

Re: THAC XII - Starts NOW!

Yes. I agree anything above ten can get out of hand. Might even hurt some feelings. I think you guys are doing great this THAC. This is my first though, so I can't say it's any better than the others.

"Bless you for making this." -Sloth 2016 * on "Chicken Shaped Lighthouse Attacks Police"
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Ephesians 4:29 -"Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers."

Re: THAC XII - Starts NOW!

Will there be a live announcement of the top ten, like a chat room announcement?  Or will it just be a new thread?  Either is fine, I'm just curious.

http://i.imgur.com/CSwoca1.png

Re: THAC XII - Starts NOW!

Binding Brick wrote:

Will there be a live announcement of the top ten, like a chat room announcement?  Or will it just be a new thread?  Either is fine, I'm just curious.

I'm not entirely sure, but since they said they will be publicly ranking the top ten I can assume that they will be announced with the winners in a new thread.

Re: THAC XII - Starts NOW!

Sméagol wrote:

The problem is that after about 10th place, the quality of entries starts to blur into a range in which it is hard to distinguish one from another.

I completely understand the logic behind it. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I understand it. I have been a judge before for one BRAWL (and yes, that might not quality enough reputability to make any definite statements about the judging process) and I do agree that yeah, the line does blur a bit after the 11-15 mark. But isn't that the point of taking the averages of the multiple judging sheets? If each judging sheet is blurred in likely different directions over multiple scoring sheets, wouldn't averaging them create a good estimate of where it should sit? And if I'm wrong, please correct me as I'm not sure if I can say enough about the process. All I'm saying is that I believe that it would benefit people to rank until 20.

I personally remember one of the most inspiring moments early on as a brickfilmer was when I got 15th place in one BRAWL. I was beyond thrilled because I was relatively new in the community and I didn’t expect to place that high, even if it wasn’t in the Top 10. And if only the Top 10 were judged, I would have never known that. And yes, I had a good amount of positive feedback on it, but it really boosted my confidence knowing that the actual judges placed my film so high.

And possibly as an alternative, maybe it could work if the judges could collectively determine the Top 10 and then come to a consensus on their order. After that, they would determine 11-20 and also come to a consensus on their order to hopefully even out the blur of the entries. I believe that would be a good medium.