Re: The Doctor Who Discussion thread(SPOILER ALERT!)
I'm sorry but in what way was The Bells of Saint John's ending a Deus Ex Machina?
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Forums - Bricks in Motion » General Film Discussion » The Doctor Who Discussion thread(SPOILER ALERT!)
I'm sorry but in what way was The Bells of Saint John's ending a Deus Ex Machina?
I completely and utterly agree with everything you said Si665, you summed up the current state of Doctor Who perfectly. Lucas, I don't think he was referring to The Bells of Saint John individually, but instead to the Moffat era as a whole. Things like the pandorica, silence/doctors death resolution etc are all prime examples of a Deus Ex Machina.
I completely and utterly agree with everything you said Si665, you summed up the current state of Doctor Who perfectly. Lucas, I don't think he was referring to The Bells of Saint John individually, but instead to the Moffat era as a whole. Things like the pandorica, silence/doctors death resolution etc are all prime examples of a Deus Ex Machina.
I'm sorry but in what way was The Bells of Saint John's ending a Deus Ex Machina?
I'm guessing the motorbike's anti gravity. I don't think that was ever mentioned before and it just came out of the blue.
However, I think that's what made it awesome.
Even if he hadn't used to bike, he could have just used the TARDIS and it wouldn't have make much of a difference except it wouldn't have been as fun.
I enjoyed the episode, the Doctor was just delightful here. Though, I do admit, it is a bunch like the Wire. But I don't really care.
I really liked the bit where they when into the TARDIS and came out in the airplane. The part was amazingly well done. They seem to be having a lot more fun doing fancy stuff lately.
Whatever happened to the decent stories that lasted a few episodes that were not rushed, had somewhat sensible plots (not Doctor Who riding up the side of buildings on an anti gravity motorbike !!!)
Yeah, because they've sure summed up Oswin's plot line in just one episode.
If you think that ridng up the side of a building with an anti gravity motorbike is too far-fetched, perhaps you shouldn't be watching a television show about a man who travels through time in a phone box.
If you think that riding up the side of a building with an anti gravity motorbike is too far-fetched, perhaps you shouldn't be watching a television show about a man who travels through time in a phone box.
NO! Verisimilitude (making a false theory believable) doesn't work like that! Along with "Turn off your brain and enjoy it", or "It's supposed to be fun", the "If you can believe X then you can believe Y" excuse is my most hated Science-Ficion-Apologist-ism.
The TARDIS is a well-explained device that features prominently in every episode. Its a key plot-device that pretty much defines the show, but the only thing it proves is that time-travel exists and is fairly straightforward (from a broad viewpoint). It's mere presence does not justify any other fantasy element in the show.
A Google search and a link to a fansite informs me that the bike is an anti-gravity bike. Putting to one side the fact that a bike which ignores gravity wouldn't be able to ride on the side of a building because you still need gravity to hold the motorbike onto the side of the building - was there any point when it was even explained or just hinted that the motorbike belonged to the Doctor, let alone that it can fly? I thought it was just something the Doctor picked up from off the street...or has London transport suddenly become awesome?
The bike didn't really bug me that much, but I think I need to watch the episode again anyway because I viewed it in a crowded room comprising of adults, teenagers and children ranging from 9-12 years old (who are the target audience BTW). Perched on a stool in the corner, I quietly observed their reactions. The funny thing was that no-one in the room seemed to know what was going on, they all said "What?" when the motorbike went up the building, they all thought the ending was rushed and too simple, and about half of the room immediately compared it to The Wire (with small elements of Silence in the Library)
Last edited by Max Butcher (April 2, 2013 (08:41am))
I'm sorry, but if an anti-gravity bike is the worst thing in the episode, it can't be that bad. I think the Wi-Fi deal/Recycling The Wire's plot, is much worse. Of course, that comes from a non-viewer.
And quick endings started back with RTD, not Moffat.
End of Time, Doomsday, Last of the Time Lords, just to name a few. The only difference is that RTD usually gave us something bigger to worry about. (Doctor's regen, Rose's "Death", Donna's Amnesia, Ect...)
I didn't mind 11's "Death", or The Pandorica, and would argue that RTD is the worse of the two, but Moffat seems to be trying to take the title.
In other news:
50th anniversary foe revealed. Oh my....This wins the ugly award.
10 and Rose are also returning for the special, and I'm really looking forward to that dynamic between doctors.
ZYGON. Classic Doctor Who fans rejoice! I hope they bring back Tom Baker too, it'd be fitting since the Zygons first appeared in a story with him, and he's the greatest Doctor ever...
Squid wrote:If you think that riding up the side of a building with an anti gravity motorbike is too far-fetched, perhaps you shouldn't be watching a television show about a man who travels through time in a phone box.
NO! Verisimilitude (making a false theory believable) doesn't work like that! Along with "Turn off your brain and enjoy it", or "It's supposed to be fun", the "If you can believe X then you can believe Y" excuse is my most hated Science-Ficion-Apologist-ism.
The TARDIS is a well-explained device that features prominently in every episode. Its a key plot-device that pretty much defines the show, but the only thing it proves is that time-travel exists and is fairly straightforward (from a broad viewpoint). It's mere presence does not justify any other fantasy element in the show.
But neither does it preclude any other fantasy/sci-fi elements from being introduced to the show, and I don't see how or why the anti-gravity bike is bad. Many of the props in Doctor Who have a distinctly retro feel--the Police Phone Box would have slipped into obscurity if it wasn't for Doctor Who. The 10th Doctor's Timey-Wimey Detector (as seen in Blink) looks like an old cassette recorder with some random bits attached to it. In the same episode, the TARDIS is shown to have a DVD slot in it (which, when you consider this is supposedly highly advanced alien technology, is rather odd). I don't see how a 1950s-style motorcycle with a built-in anti-gravity generator doesn't fit in with the rest of the technology in Doctor Who.
I myself found the introduction of the bike rather abrupt, but by the end of the episode I'd gotten used to it. What I found more annoying was the fact the Doctor uses it to supposedly "protect" the TARDIS, but he just leaves it standing in the middle of London's South Bank, in full view of the public--so basically anyone can just pop into it without the Doctor realizing. And when you consider that the villains could use the WiFi to control any given passerby to simply walk into the TARDIS and take control of it, it seems like a pretty stupid thing to do.
Putting to one side the fact that a bike which ignores gravity wouldn't be able to ride on the side of a building because you still need gravity to hold the motorbike onto the side of the building - was there any point when it was even explained or just hinted that the motorbike belonged to the Doctor, let alone that it can fly? I thought it was just something the Doctor picked up from off the street...or has London transport suddenly become awesome?
This is where your logic makes absolutely no sense to me. You really expect a TV Show that involves a device which defies nearly all laws of physics known to man (time travel, being "bigger on the inside", etc.) to give an in-depth explanation of a vehicle's anti-gravity functions? There are any number of ways the bike could drive up the side of the Shard. It's not necessary to know every last detail about how things work, and it would be boring and pedantic if the show did this. It's shown that the bike is kept inside the TARDIS, so it clearly belongs to the Doctor and he might have even owned it for a long time--why should that be a problem?
While I found the episode itself not particularly outstanding, it wasn't exactly horrible, either. I do think the idea of mind-control through WiFi is quite clever, if rather gimmicky. (I was a bit disappointed, though, to find that is was mostly a bunch of people typing on computers that were behind it, rather than an "actual" ethereal monster living in the cloud, which would have been a lot more interesting in my opinion.) The episode did feel rather rushed, especially towards the end, and the ending was a little too neat and clear-cut, though it still definitely wasn't Deus Ex Machina. Then again there's only so much you can fit in a 45-minute episode, and all things considered it could have been worse.
gosh i really liked the new episode
it was so cheesy
and good
i liked it a butt load
I really liked the idea of special objects with sentimental value being currency. It's pretty far-fetched, but really interesting and totally the sort of thing I really wish I thought up myself.
The villain in this episode was so ridiculous and over-the-top that I loved it.
They did a really good job on the costumes in this one with all of the random aliens going about. It looked a lot like Star Wars up until the people with a few lines on their faces came up who looked like typical Star Trek aliens. He he
Anyone know how I can watch the new episodes? They're not out on DVD or Netflix yet, and you have to pay for them on Amazon.
you can watch them on BBCAmerica or you can illegally download them
i do the latter
don't turn me in please
We don't get cable, so I guess I'll be waiting for the DVD or Netflix.
"Well that was a sentimental and somewhat r e t a r d e d #DoctorWho episode. Do I care about the silly consequences of a child messing up a song?"
I'll expand upon my tweet here. I found that episode to be quite a mixed bag, all the aliens reminded me fondly of the RTD era, and the majority of the costumes were good too, but I also found the existence of mega god planet intelligence and it destruction with a leaf to be extremely stupid. The singing of the girl, and her in general, was bloody annoying, at least the man in the temple was much better in terms of his voice.
All in all it was pretty weak, it's plot was really too fast paced and plain stupid, it was a bit fractured, and left me thinking that Doctor Who now just orbits its stories around the fears of childhood, for example of getting crap wrong or getting lost.
Next week the Ice Warriors + Liam Cunningham (who is the greatest) will be featured, in a submarine. My expectations are pretty low, which saddens me deeply.
Now, that guy. Neil Cross, he get's Doctor Who.
After 20 minutes I was loving it which I was incredibly surprised by since not that much was going on. The girl is singing the song and everything seem to be fine, the Doctor and Clara are just sitting there and enjoying it which if that was the rest of the episode - I would have been fine with because it's a very beautifully realised world, there wasn't this need of some conspiracy !@#$ that alot of writers tend to rely on nowadays. We need stories like this to show that the Doctor doesn't travel the universe to fight evil, he travels the universe because he loves doing it and wants to share it with a companion and the first 25 minutes of The Rings of Akhaten is a great example of what more episodes of Doctor Who should be like. I love how this time it was flipped, this time it was the Doctor and his companion visiting a new world with alien citizens and not aliens coming to earth because the last thing we need is more stories in Cardiff. It did loose some momentum in the scene when the sonic screwdriver comes across like the most powerful thing in the universe and the pretty rushed situation with the weird alien but Neil Cross makes up for it with the phenomenal speech with the Doctor which is one of the doctor's best moments of NuWho.
As my friend kindly pointed out today, how the fark did they survive with absolutely no atmosphere? It was a pretty weak episode as a whole frankly, and I hate how the demonic intelligence god supreme parasite thing's face just happened to form a scary human skull. It was on too large a scale for a single episode of 45 minutes, and it just ended up being rushed and silly. I found the speech to be marginal, but not that good. It was a pretty meh episode.
Note, I surveyed all my Doctor Who orientated friends today, and not a single one enjoyed it.
This episode was pretty good, even if it wasn't what I'd expected.
The Butterfly Effect-esque idea at the beginning was neat; I've sometimes wondered about things like that, so it was cool to see it in film.
I loved all of the random aliens and the costumes were great; it reminded me a lot of Star Wars (especially the Mos Eisley Space Port/cantina scenes). I found the singing a bit too over-the-top, but it wasn't too bad. What really disappointed me, though, was that we barely saw 30 seconds of The Vigil. They had such awesome designs and spooky voices, it seems like they wasted a great villain opportunity there. The planet-sized villain was a bit cheesy, I think having the lizard-mummy wake up and rampage around would have been cooler.
One thing made me wonder, though: If the planet-parasite consumed all of the Doctor's feelings, wouldn't that mean he'd have no memory whatsoever?
The idea of using sentimental value is really interesting, but rather impractical, even with the whole sci-fi/floatey-orangey-sparkley-dissolvey thing. There's no way you can quantify sentimental value. And sentimental objects as a general rule are valuable to only one or two people, so that would mean that the object would lose its value the instant it was handed over. Or, if it doesn't, does that mean it does have a specific value (which brings us back to the quantifiablility problem) and accumulates value every time it changes hands(since the people who receive might get attached to it as well)? I think this idea would have worked better in a fantasy/magic rather than sci-fi setting, but it still is pretty neat.
@Carousel: As Squid pointed out, if you're going to nitpick over relatively minor details, perhaps you shouldn't be watching Doctor Who in the first place.
Whining about a little girl's acting/singing and comparing it to that of an adult is pretty harsh and unfair.
The leaf defeated (or at least permanently satiated) the monster because, instead of past emotions, it contained potential futures--which are infinite. (Incidentally, the weeping Angels use a similar concept--feeding off the potential energy of their victims.)
Also, to my knowledge, planets or planet chunks with empty vacuums in between them are usually not within driving distance of a few minutes using the sci-fi equivalent of a rented moped. There's nothing to suggest that there's no atmosphere between the asteroids, and their proximity to each other and the giant sun/deity/thing makes it extremely likely there'd be enough air to breathe.
The chunks seemed to be much smaller than actual planets and the system seemed to be entirely filled with air.
I'm guessing that each chunk has its own artificial gravity, which would be believable since artificial gravity has obviously been implemented in Who for a very long time.
Also, the big star thing is probably way smaller than an actual star with it compared to those chunks.
The one thing that did feel pretty off, though, was that they lost their star. Wouldn't they freeze? They would have to quickly evacuate the entire system as the temperature would rapidly fall into an unlivable level after a while.
Unless, of course, as well as artificial gravity, they also had some sort of atmospheric conditioning, which might be plausible.
Still, I that seemed like it would have been a big problem at the time.
I wouldn't call large illogical gaps in a story's makeup minor details, but then again, I myself wouldn't call mediocre episodes (such as this one we're discussing) worthy of major praise. It's all down to opinion. I believe Doctor Who, although it has some nice, more mature moments, is catering far too much to the sensibilities of children (being scared of getting something wrong, getting lost, getting chased) in way too a simplistic manner. I'm tired of Deus Ex Machima endings which fail to make full sense or rely on trivial means of salvation. FlyingMinifig, I've been watching Doctor Who for a long time, and I have no plan to stop. I'm sticking around for the days when Doctor Who regains what it used to be, what appealed to me in the first place. Great actors, darker or less explicitly child-orientated plot lines, and great original monsters.
One the sun note, if it is indeed a sun, and the asteroids that these settlements are built upon are indeed only a few kilometres from it, wouldn't they have melted long ago due to solar flares and the immense heat?
Large illogical gaps? Like the god supreme parasite forming a face? The little girl's singing? The leaf (which actually made sense, just read FlyingMinifig's comment again)? And how was the ending a Deus Ex Machina?
It seems like Deus Ex Machina is the only thing you can complain about in Doctor Who episodes and most of the time it's not even a Deus Ex Machina like in The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang
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