Topic: Shooting animation in RAW vs Jpeg

I've been wondering...is it worth it to be shooting in RAW format rather than JPEG? I'm not an expert (and this is why I'm posting here), but from what I've heard RAW is completely uncompressed and is pretty much standard in the feature film world of stop motion. I've always been shooting in JPEG and the results are still sufficient from what I can see, but should I make the switch to shooting in RAW? Also, I would prefer the best results possible, so would shooting in JPEGs as long as they're the right resolution be sufficient in a film festival screening or comparable to film quality or something like that, versus shooting RAW?

Re: Shooting animation in RAW vs Jpeg

Shoot raw, if you have the right software. Some software can't handle raw files. I shoot in raw and then bring it into Camera Raw 8, and save as a TIFF with an .xmp file, the bring this into AE. When you shoot raw, you have control over your colors, clarity and highlight, whites, blacks, and more. JPEG It's like baking a cake, all the image info is baked in, you can't really change it. RAW is a loose batter where you can keep re-baking your batter.

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Re: Shooting animation in RAW vs Jpeg

Shooting RAW is a lot more time consuming, but after you finish it gives you a lot more room to play with as far as your image color goes. In my current film Beyond the Eleventh Dimension I started shooting in all RAW but switched to Jpeg at the end due to time issues. The footage cuts together well enough and I don't think anyone will notice in the final movie, but if you do have a very colorful film and want to get the most out of your images RAW is the way to do that.

(In the trailer I linked a lot of the early shots like the room with the alarm and the war room were shot raw while the oil rig style lair was shot in jepg)

Re: Shooting animation in RAW vs Jpeg

For casual brickfilming, I would recommend JPG. Your video is going to be compressed in the end anyway (unless you're making it for Hollywood, and not YouTube), so the quality between JPG and RAW isn't too noticeable (especially if you use FINE JPG). Plus, RAW files are very large, so if you have limited hard drive space, this would become a problem. I also echo every point SlothPaladin and GentryStudios made.

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Re: Shooting animation in RAW vs Jpeg

RAW is a lot of work. Because it's uncompressed and has all sorts of information in it, it looks like crap right out of the camera. You have to work it to bring back out the color and contrast that will make your image look good. When doing all sorts of advanced lighting and using really detailed puppets, as the pros do, it's worth it; but for brickfilming, as long as you get your exposure, white balance, etc. right in camera, it's unnecessary, save a few special situations. Editing individual RAW frames in a still image editor would also be really clumsy, so you need a program that can do high end video color grading, like Adobe Premier, FCP, etc. Just shoot jpg, I do and I think my straight image quality is pretty darn good.

Re: Shooting animation in RAW vs Jpeg

I, personally, love to shoot and animate in RAW. Sure, youtube compresses video, but it also compresses audio quality. Thus, it doesn't really matter what sort of quality you upload to youtube (to a reasonable degree), however, it's always best to have a RAW copy of your film on hand, in case you ever got the opportunity to showcase it on a large screen, or at a festival.

Remember, once you compress, you can never truly uncompress the footage. If there's even the slightest chance that you'll need a, for instance, 4k frame for a poster, you're screwed if all your images are 640 x 360. Bigger is better... at least for the sake of saving the files to a hard or flash driver.

https://i.imgur.com/Z8VtGae.png

Re: Shooting animation in RAW vs Jpeg

Everyone here has made some great points, especially dyland backyard and sloth, but these are our opinions. Don't let us rule over your decision. I encourage you to find your own personal preference. Try both mini/smile and see what fits your needs more. Once again, stoked about everyone's input on this topic. I'll shut up now  mini/tongue

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Re: Shooting animation in RAW vs Jpeg

Dyland wrote:

Sure, youtube compresses video, but it also compresses audio quality. Thus, it doesn't really matter what sort of quality you upload to youtube (to a reasonable degree), however, it's always best to have a RAW copy of your film on hand, in case you ever got the opportunity to showcase it on a large screen, or at a festival.

YouTube really doesn't compress videos that badly. You can upload a 4K video to YouTube, and it'll let you watch it if you have enough bandwidth to actually stream the video. What do you mean by RAW copy of the film? Do you render your films in un-compressed .AVI? Even then, it's compressing, because it's removing all of that RAW data and combining the frames into a video.

Dyland wrote:

Remember, once you compress, you can never truly uncompress the footage. If there's even the slightest chance that you'll need a, for instance, 4k frame for a poster, you're screwed if all your images are 640 x 360. Bigger is better... at least for the sake of saving the files to a hard or flash driver.

If you're shooting at 4K, why would you compress to 640x360? mini/tongue Sure, I understand the point of RAW, but it seems kind of outrageous to take every frame in Raw, especially since there are hundreds of thousands of frames. If you're going to make a 4K poster, re-pose your characters, or take promo shots in Raw, instead of using RAW for every frame.

However, like GentryStudios said, it's all personal preference. Notice that this discussion is only valid to DSLR users, and that the Webcam animators must stay out. mini/lol

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Re: Shooting animation in RAW vs Jpeg

This shot in my film is jepg, bit I found a test shot of it taken in RAW and I liked the colors in the sky a lot more, sadly if I did shoothe it in RAW that footage seems to be lost. But once again it is a minor thing that no one will notice and I don't even think about it when I am watching it as a movie.

Re: Shooting animation in RAW vs Jpeg

rioforce wrote:
Dyland wrote:

Sure, youtube compresses video, but it also compresses audio quality. Thus, it doesn't really matter what sort of quality you upload to youtube (to a reasonable degree), however, it's always best to have a RAW copy of your film on hand, in case you ever got the opportunity to showcase it on a large screen, or at a festival.

YouTube really doesn't compress videos that badly. You can upload a 4K video to YouTube, and it'll let you watch it if you have enough bandwidth to actually stream the video. What do you mean by RAW copy of the film? Do you render your films in un-compressed .AVI? Even then, it's compressing, because it's removing all of that RAW data and combining the frames into a video.

Sure, you can now upload videos to youtube in amazing 4k quality, however, similar to how a png file compresses a picture differently than a jpeg does, youtube's 4k isn't truly "uncompressed," which, true, does make uploading videos at that high of a rate rather unnecessary because, it'll be compressed anyhow.

Yes, rioforce, you do loose some info from the RAW frames when you interlace the pictures into a video, but, usually this is a really small amount. (depending on what rendering program you use) Just keeping the original frames in RAW is all that is truly necessary... I was just elaborating on how it's smart to keep the file at the highest uncompressed quality possible up until you have your "final product." Otherwise, your 640x360 final image may not be a "nicely compressed" picture, but a rather "badly compressed" minor-ly altered picture.

Just basically using what I know about audio recording and applying it to video... If your final audio will be a stereo 16 bit 44100hz file, don't record at 16 bit and 44100hz... record higher if possible. That just increases the "room" for digital errors and other technical problems that could happen along the way from recording to finalizing.

I feel that some people (not specifically anyone on this site... but, just amateur filmmakers in general) might, in starting out, take pictures in 630x360, and then just "upsample" the images to 1920x1080 or higher... thinking that they've actually increased picture quality... Once something has been pixelized, it can't "un-pixelize," if you know what I'm saying.

rioforce wrote:

However, like GentryStudios said, it's all personal preference. Notice that this discussion is only valid to DSLR users, and that the Webcam animators must stay out. mini/lol

I may be a little "quality-biased," as, I've just recently started caring about 4k quality imaging, and studio quality audio. Sure, RAW and WAV's are big space-wasters, but, in the era of Terabyte computers, I think the argument for Jpeg's is a moot point. - Though, as not many of the "hobbyist" brickfilmers are going to invest in Terabyte-holding computers and external drives, Jpeg is a great way to have large images with less file size.

For those that are using webcams or less than RAW, less than 4k cameras... I'd suggest sticking with pristine PNG files... It'll sure make those 630x360 webcam pics look much better than a 240p youtube video, that's for sure! mini/tongue

https://i.imgur.com/Z8VtGae.png

Re: Shooting animation in RAW vs Jpeg

Thanks everyone for all of your thorough and precise answers. Since most of my work is just going to be uploaded on the web anyway, I'll just use jpeg for those. However, soon I want to begin tests shooting in RAW, and since I am completely new at this I have no idea where to start. I just purchased Dragonframe and so I'm still learning to use that, but if you're someone who shoots RAW could you please share your workflow with me so I can get the best quality results? I also have After Effects and use Final Cut Pro for editing btw, if that's important in this situation.

Re: Shooting animation in RAW vs Jpeg

Dyland wrote:

I, personally, love to shoot and animate in RAW. Sure, youtube compresses video, but it also compresses audio quality. Thus, it doesn't really matter what sort of quality you upload to youtube (to a reasonable degree), however, it's always best to have a RAW copy of your film on hand, in case you ever got the opportunity to showcase it on a large screen, or at a festival.

Remember, once you compress, you can never truly uncompress the footage. If there's even the slightest chance that you'll need a, for instance, 4k frame for a poster, you're screwed if all your images are 640 x 360. Bigger is better... at least for the sake of saving the files to a hard or flash driver.

Could you possibly share what your workflow is like? I'm having a difficult time understanding how I should edit RAW images specifically in editing software, exporting them as a lossless file, etc...

Last edited by epikfilmz11 (November 5, 2014 (07:23pm))

Re: Shooting animation in RAW vs Jpeg

Essentially, my workflow is that of a complete madman on the verge of making a scientific breakthrough years ahead of his time... aka Nikola Tesla. jk

Honestly, when I edit my films (specifically effects and such) I tend to use photoshop (or the free alternative, GIMP). It allows me to edit frame by frame, and, being a perfectionist, it makes little things such as lighting and gunshots much easier to edit... also, editing frame by frame is necessary for creating lightsabers, and, as I practically started out making some Star Wars brickfilms - that's how I've always edited.

I export, usually, as HUGE .png files. (I'm not talking gigabytes a frame, but, you definitely could go that far, if you had enough of a hard drive to back it all up.) Sure, they're not quite as, um, "impressive" as RAW files, but, as of the present moment, and my somewhat inexperience with working with RAW files before August of this year, I do not know of any other methods of doing such things with what I have... yet.

When I edit, I use Sony Vegas... Movie Studio. Yes, I use a program that has a limit on screen size for finalizing video. I plan on purchasing a version of Sony Vegas Pro sometime soon - but, either way, it really shows how RAW is practically necessary for someone even like me.

The finalized "edited frames" and even final film will be greatly compressed. So, since I'm so restricted, I really have the want to expand and film in RAW, even if it's compressed to 1920x1080 or even 630x360 in the end. - Also, filming in RAW (or a larger ratio than the final product) is always something I'd suggest, as, one of my old recorders, some pixels went out, and, since it was the same size as the final film, those "blank spots" over a character's eye or covering a background were always noticeable. Shooting in RAW, with ruined pixels, is nearly un-noticeable, especially after compressing the heck out of the footage for the final product. (Which, funny enough, is still high - Blu-Ray quality)

I'm still in the process of learning too, epikfilmz11. I hope we'll both learn a thing or two coming out of this all. I love the look of RAW, and, if I had access to IMAX film, would shoot just about anything on that as well. In my experience, I'd love to have too much on my hands, because, then I could compress it down along the way to whatever I really need.

That's why I'd suggest shooting in RAW - You could compress a lot or keep everything as uncompressed as possible, your choice. When you save in .jpg, you can't really go back unless you want to film all over again.

https://i.imgur.com/Z8VtGae.png

Re: Shooting animation in RAW vs Jpeg

You should be able to use Photoshop to batch edit all the color settings of your RAW image, then I will frame and resize the image to ether 1920x1080 or 2560x1440 (if I am going to do some effects that need more screen real estate, I usually use  tif format.

But in all reality RAW is a weird technical geek thing and won't add very much to your final production. You talked in another thread about getting into lighting gels and more colorful and creative lighting, you should focus on lighting not raw, high def or 4k. If you have a creative and well lit movie mastered at 4:3 aspect ratio and rendered out in 480p it will look way better then a blandly lit 4k movie, no and/ifs/or or buts about it. Good lighting trumps resolution, ALWAYS. Focusing on RAW is the last thing you should worry about in film making, good sound and good lighting are WAY more important. If you want to bring your films up to the next level after that start learning about lens focal lenths and when to use what lens and the hows and whys of that, someone who knows how to use lenses correctly and shoots in JPEG will make a better looking movie then someone who doesn't really understand lenses but shoots in RAW.

Re: Shooting animation in RAW vs Jpeg

SlothPaladin wrote:

...you should focus on lighting not raw, high def or 4k. If you have a creative and well lit movie mastered at 4:3 aspect ratio and rendered out in 480p it will look way better then a blandly lit 4k movie, no and/ifs/or or buts about it. Good lighting trumps resolution, ALWAYS. Focusing on RAW is the last thing you should worry about in film making, good sound and good lighting are WAY more important.

Well put, Sloth.

I've spent practically the past 7 years perfecting my set building, lighting, and animating skills, all while learning and discovering new techniques for editing and other such things. For me, RAW is simply the next step to achieve nearly lifelike images from the films I make.

Any starting brickfilmers should focus a bit more on storytelling and such, rather than make crappy looking 4k films. mini/tongue

I think this sort of conversation started on one of Nathan Wells' "Brickfilming Weekly Discussions" he had earlier this year. The consensus of this forum was that sound editing, visual interests, and storytelling have seemingly been put on the back-burner recently in brickfilming - something that should have never been sacrificed.

Overall, though, if you can shoot in RAW, I'd say do it. Again, there are just too many things you could do with the footage later... Nathan Wells' (again, thanks Nathan) Brickfilm Archives shows just how sad it can be for filmmakers who settled for a lower quality - some great classics are in broken condition, not in their originally filmed aspect ratio. If only they'd saved those frames/recordings in the highest quality.

https://i.imgur.com/Z8VtGae.png

Re: Shooting animation in RAW vs Jpeg

I shoot all of my films in RAW. As SlothPaladin said it takes a lot of time to do. Here is my workflow for RAW. I start by taking frames in Dragonframe. With RAW each frames takes about 26 MB of space for my camera. After the animation is done all the frames are processed in Photoshop and then exported as a full size JPEG. The frames are then edited like a normal. The big advantage in shooting RAW isn't about the compression but rather the post production control of the image. You can tweak colors far better if you have the sensor information. If you are good at processing images this greatly helps the look of the film. The only negative is time and file size. On average my films take up between 60-150 GBs of space. Brickfilming already takes time so I think it is worth spending the bit of time it takes to process the images but it's not the most important thing in a brickfilm.