• Joined: December 26, 2008

Re: Review Panel Reform

Onion wrote:

I find it hard to believe that the applicants standards of writing are as pitiful as you make out.

You haven't seen the applications. It's frightening, really. There are a few that would be good enough, but the vast majority... *shudders*

Look, I'm not going to sit here and make excuses for myself: I've only been doing 2-3 films a week at most lately, almost all of them non-recommended. I haven't been anywhere near as productive in the last few months as I should have, and I think every other reviewer (with the exception of Builder) would say the same. Time is an issue for a lot of us, but Stoppedmotion makes a good point that if we can't fulfill our end of the bargain, we need to get the [expletive] off the panel.

The problem is, most of us do have enough time to at least do our part, but we don't use it. Getting up the desire to sit and critique a 3-overall film takes a lot more effort than we're willing to put forth some days. This doesn't make it right, certainly... but "failure to use time" not as cut-and-dry an issue as "not having time," and we're hesitant to cut loose the best writers on the site over such a fixable situation when the guys waiting in the wings are so careless they spell "application" wrong in their submissions.

Your concerns are valid and appreciated, though I must say it probably would have been more constructive had they been first postulated in a manner other than a full-out mutiny-inducing diatribe. :sheepish:

EDIT: Crap, we don't have a "sheepish grin" smilie? Well, imagine one.

With all due respect Noodle, I don't want you here. - Ratboy Productions
  • Location: The Copacabana
  • Joined: December 26, 2008

Re: Review Panel Reform

Wouldn't that be this? --> mini/cat

  • Location: Seattle-ish
  • Joined: May 2, 2009

Re: Review Panel Reform

I'll speak up for a moment here, considering that I am a part of the body being discussed. I am glad to be a part of the Review Panel and have sought to be a frequent contributor, reviewing up to 20 films in one batch. It irks me that I cannot perform this duty at this point in time. Due to circumstances, it is rather difficult for me to view new brickfilms, much less review them. While I can load forum pages and perform moderator duties, I cannot live up to those of mine as a Reviewer.

As such, I am willing to step down, though I don't know if that would really be useful. I would then reapply when circumstances allowed. I'll leave the decision up to my superiors, however.

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Jargon's Website

  • Joined: December 26, 2008

Re: Review Panel Reform

Onion wrote:

I can see where both yourself and Noodle are coming from Squash, but I agree with Stoppedmotion. I understand you mightn't want to hunch by a computer all day, but to be honest, reviewing brickfilms doesn't take up your entire day, nor should it. It's unnecessary to slog over it tirelessly for that long, but why not at least make the time to do 3 or 4? And another thing I'd like to point out, is that if it indeed takes you that long to review films, why not hand it over to someone else? Nobody's asking you to write reviews constantly, you volunteered for that post, thus if you feel a strain from this position then resign, even temporarily. And as for signing up new reviewers, well, let me just say this - which do you need more, great writing skills, or consistency? Whilst I understand that under-average grammatical ability shows the site in a bad light, you need to prioritize. Also, I find it hard to believe that the applicants standards of writing are as pitiful as you make out. This is of course my pea to the pod, but I think there's some valid statements you should consider.

Now this is more like it. You make good points here. While I agree that reviewing brickfilms shouldn't take up the whole day, like Noodle has said in the post above me, the actual will to review is more of an issue than the time required for most reviewers. You are right in asserting that because all members of the panel volunteered, it should be their duty to do the job or get out. However, I think a lot of the problem with people who realistically should be leaving actually doing so is more a fear of letting the rest of the panel (and in turn, the site) down than anything else. It may not be logical to stay in when you are doing nothing, but no one wants to be the weak link, and I think that mentality makes a lot of people stay on- assuming that someday they will be able to review more often. On the issue of writing skills vs. consistency, the honest answer is that we need both. It simply doesn't stand to reason that we would hire subpar reviewers to write for the directory just because they have the time and will to do so. From the standpoint of an outsider viewing the directory, a slow, largely professional stream of reviewed films looks a lot better than a frequently updated directory that looks to be written by young children.

As for whether the writing standards are as low as we insist, I'll keep the identities of the users who sent these applications private as I don't want to embarrass anyone (some of these are older submissions as well, so the quality of the entrants might be better now if they had decided to try again), but they will probably be a good insight into what we're seeing:

the first is :CAPTAIN OBVIOUS!- by the ever so popular Keshen.

(That's really the title!)

It's about a man called CAPTAIN OBVIOUS! He flies around, and people say his name, and when they see him things happen. Like a car crash into a slightly modified horse trailer that was from a set a few years back. He crashes into a building- where the guy says "Tell me something I DON'T KNOW!" It's an ok film- it's short at 43 seconds. It has some nice voice acting by mindgame and filmguy1. I like it- but it was too short. The sets could use a bit of work. It was good technicaly- but the joke got a bit old. Over all; I give it a 3\5.

The Village By Piet

A surprisingly enjoyable film! It is quite difficult to tell a story without diolouge, but this film would have to take the cake! The animation can differ, but it has it's moments. The integration between CGI and actual lego was quite hard to spot. The sound design was enjoyable to, it was quite realistic. This film is a must to watch. Highly detailed sets are also a plus to this great film!

Small World, created by Jake Sebastian, is a film which has won third place in the Septemberfest contest hosted on BiM. A small child/teen/adult  goes through tough times just because he's small. He wakes up in the morning, and leaves his small home. as he wonders through the town/city, trouble starts to affect him from being splashed to almost getting run over by a car. The story is one of those stories which will conduct the viewer to stay and watch. it will hook it's audience by connecting the main character through various stages of his troubled life, which then turns into a nightmare.
    When the worst comes, the small character runs away, having a life in front of him. he had the opportunity to turn back, but he turned away, forward into his up-growing life. after getting lost in a forest, traveling down a river, walking stray in the desert, and over the mountain- the young boy finally comes to a house. The owner of that house then welcomes him in, and cares for him. They grow up together, the owner acting as a father to that young child and making him enjoy life while he has it. As the young boy became older, so did the 'father'. After the 'father' looked back to that boy, he turned away, walking into the light which filled the doorway.
    As the boy wakes up, he is alarmed and starts to panic. he runs through the forest, and back to the town which he first started, but to sadly find it has been deserted and destroyed. Empty. he walks back to that empty house, with sorrow in him, which attaches the viewer as well. but just then, a little boy walks into the room, having the same adventure as the other. It truly is a small world.
    The music made the feel of this video become more alive. It fit every scene, leading into the next, into a very happy ending.

I'm sorry, but on a one off application for a panel whose main function is writing reviews, failing to capitalize the first word of a sentence, making basic spelling mistakes, and writing sentences that make no sense at all when read aloud are easy deal breakers. If the applicant isn't putting the effort in to check their application, we can't really expect them to do so in writing reviews for the site. We all make mistakes, don't get me wrong, but some mistakes can be easily avoided with proofreading, and still they pop up left and right in the submissions box. I won't go so far as to say there are no current applicants who might merit entrance into the panel (deciding that is Noodle's job), but far more people who volunteer make these errors than do not.

I don't debate that the panel has problems, but I do debate that instating unskilled reviewers would solve them. We've had a lot of people come in saying they can do a lot of work and have an intense desire to review films day in and day out, and very few come through. The panel just can't accept people on that basis alone any more.

  • Location: Connecticut
  • Joined: August 24, 2010

Re: Review Panel Reform

Small World, created by Jake Sebastian, is a film which has won third place in the Septemberfest contest hosted on BiM. A small child/teen/adult  goes through tough times just because he's small. He wakes up in the morning, and leaves his small home. as he wonders through the town/city, trouble starts to affect him from being splashed to almost getting run over by a car. The story is one of those stories which will conduct the viewer to stay and watch. it will hook it's audience by connecting the main character through various stages of his troubled life, which then turns into a nightmare.
    When the worst comes, the small character runs away, having a life in front of him. he had the opportunity to turn back, but he turned away, forward into his up-growing life. after getting lost in a forest, traveling down a river, walking stray in the desert, and over the mountain- the young boy finally comes to a house. The owner of that house then welcomes him in, and cares for him. They grow up together, the owner acting as a father to that young child and making him enjoy life while he has it. As the young boy became older, so did the 'father'. After the 'father' looked back to that boy, he turned away, walking into the light which filled the doorway.
    As the boy wakes up, he is alarmed and starts to panic. he runs through the forest, and back to the town which he first started, but to sadly find it has been deserted and destroyed. Empty. he walks back to that empty house, with sorrow in him, which attaches the viewer as well. but just then, a little boy walks into the room, having the same adventure as the other. It truly is a small world.
    The music made the feel of this video become more alive. It fit every scene, leading into the next, into a very happy ending.


...    mini/cat


Though can I point out this was in November?

....failing to capitalize the first word of a sentence, making basic spelling mistakes, and writing sentences that make no sense at all when read aloud....

O well. I wasn't planning on being in so I guess it doesn't matter.

  • Joined: December 26, 2008

Re: Review Panel Reform

...you really didn't have to oust yourself; I didn't post the names so no one would have to know who wrote those reviews.

  • Location: Connecticut
  • Joined: August 24, 2010

Re: Review Panel Reform

Squash wrote:

...you really didn't have to oust yourself; I didn't post the names so no one would have to know who wrote those reviews.

I don't really mind, due to the fact of it being old and when I was a bit (mostly) immature. Another reason why I chose to do so was that it was a review, and the maker of the film (Golden) should have the right to see it, and see who it came from.

  • Location: The good ol' US of A
  • Joined: September 19, 2010

Re: Review Panel Reform

I'm sorry if this is how it already is, but we should get a few more people than there normally are currently, and work out a schedule, saying you have to review how many films per week. Just an idea.

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Chris W.'s Website

  • Joined: May 12, 2010

Re: Review Panel Reform

Very interested to see your replies - I must admit I was too hasty in opening the unofficial review 'club', and if you wish to close it then I have no objections. Your points are valid and are easily understandable, although instead maybe of hoisting the current reviewers off the panel, why not introduce new reviews, maybe on trials to see how they go...? Because as much as I can understand how adding bad writers wouldn't help, I'm sure adding a few over-par writers wouldn't fail too badly.

On a similarly related note, I was moseying through my outbox when I fell across a revised submission I had sent in about a month ago, but was never read. Just wondering if you might be able to look over it, see if I fit the requirements...? Many thanks.

'look like it was shot at 2 FPS by a blindfolded five year old boy with broken fingers and no thumbs.' -PushOver
I'll be back animating soon! Exams and computer faults are keeping me away </3

Drifter (THAC 11) - Here
  • Location: Australia
  • Joined: December 26, 2008

Re: Review Panel Reform

Noodle wrote:

We're not lazy... we just have other [expletive] to do besides sit all day on a brickfilming website sifting through entirely forgettable films.

I can't even begin to tell you how true this is. I've been seriously thinking about resigning because I just can't contribute with any regularity or consistency. I haven't actually properly reviewed a film in a long time, and I only manage to occasionally forward one or two films a month to the non-recommended pile. I can't even find time to be on BiM, let alone reviewing films - and when I do get on to review a film or two, I feel like I could be doing something else more interesting and important. I hate to admit that, since there is a lot of great talent out there, but when you're watching one minute, stupid 'comedy' sketches all the time, you just can't help but think 'what the hell am I doing'.

It also seems like the better writers in the community are also the older members, who tend to be more involved with their own lives before the frivoulous politics of an online review panel.

And yeah, I'm not representing the views of the review panel as a whole, yada, yada yada.


Stoppedmotion wrote:

I understand that not everyone at has the time to review films but on the same token if you signed up to be a reviewer you have to accept the responsibility of being a reviewer and you cant hack it resign. Thats my opinion.

So I have to wait to be kicked out?

Smeagol, when you do go through the current panel to peal off the inactive members, I'd appreciate it if I could be let go. It was fun being a reviewer, it was intersting to see some of the internal and organizational threads, but I did think the initiation ceremony was a little inappropriate - I still haven't recovered fully from that.

Last edited by Riley (April 4, 2011 (07:05am))

  • Location: LA County, CA
  • Joined: March 11, 2009

Re: Review Panel Reform

Riley wrote:

...but I did think the initiation ceremony was a little inappropriate - I still haven't recovered fully from that.

mini/lol

  • Joined: December 26, 2008

Re: Review Panel Reform

Riley wrote:

I did think the initiation ceremony was a little inappropriate - I still haven't recovered fully from that.

I'd just like to point out that that wasn't hazing because it wasn't (officially) compulsory in order to join the panel.

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Sméagol's Website

  • Location: LA County, CA
  • Joined: March 11, 2009

Re: Review Panel Reform

Isn't hazing or anything of the nature of hazing borderling illegal? mini/shifty

  • Location: Seattle-ish
  • Joined: May 2, 2009

Re: Review Panel Reform

It's only hazing if you can't hack it.

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Jargon's Website

  • Location: These United States of America
  • Joined: November 16, 2010

Re: Review Panel Reform

I have been interested on being on the review panel, and I do have a few ideas to make it run smoother.
1. Perhaps a rotating review panel would work the best. Example, one person would review films for 2 months, then take a break for 2 months while another person reviewed. It may help with people getting burnt out.
2. Maybe adding a requirment, say 5 reviews a month per reviewer might help.

RedBrick1/LegoTrain587 | EXPANSE | A Brickfilm

RedBrick1's Website

  • Joined: December 26, 2008

Re: Review Panel Reform

Most people would quit the panel if they were obligated to be that consistent.

I don't think the current system is very sustainable.  Planning to simplify/rework it a bit this summer when I have time.

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Sméagol's Website

  • Joined: May 12, 2010

Re: Review Panel Reform

BUMP

Just thought I'd slip a suggestion for the panel - perhaps there should be a filter system where only films given 3 stars or above in the forums should been let through to be sorted and/or reviewed?

Thus eliminating the amount of work members of the review panel have to undertake, and giving forum members more a purpose.

'look like it was shot at 2 FPS by a blindfolded five year old boy with broken fingers and no thumbs.' -PushOver
I'll be back animating soon! Exams and computer faults are keeping me away </3

Drifter (THAC 11) - Here
  • Location: Rotterdam, NL
  • Joined: January 16, 2011

Re: Review Panel Reform

Okay, did some thinking about the current problems the review system is facing on this site.

Assumptions / problems:
- Reviewers don't have a lot of time to do actual reviewing.
- The reviewing queue is being swamped by a lot mediocre entries that hardly exceed the status of "excrement" (pardon my language). This is a major unmotivating (is that an english word) factor for the review panel who already have little time to do reviewing.  That's not helping.
- Currently a review is necessary to get into the recommended section.
- This combination of factors results in the fact that currently NO entries find their way to the "recommended" section anymore...

One way to handle this problem may be that instead of focussing on the quality of RELEASES, you focus on the quality of ANIMATORS.

Let's say we have a group of "Established Animators" (EA's):
- EA's have proven in the past that they are capable to doing expert reviews on brickfilms (the current review panel members), and/or
- EA's have proven in the past that they are capable of producing one or more quality releases (the release should pass the current "recommended" criteria).

The rights of the EA members are the following:
- releases of EA members automatically get submitted to the recommended section, based on the assumption that an ANIMATOR who has proven to produce quality films in the past is likely to keep up that level of quality in the future. So, no review necessary, and we get a steady stream / trickle of quality productions.
- films of NON-EA members can be released in the normal releases forum. No promises of reviews, just an opportunity to show the community "Hey, look what I made…!"
- EA members can notice the quality of a release by an NON-EA animator in the normal releases forum and invite the NON-EA member to become an EA member. For example: EA member1 (let's call him "Gollum"): "Hey, look at what this guy made, that's actually pretty decent!" EA member2 (let's call him "Chinese food"): "Yep, that certainly looks decent enough, let's invite him to EA status!" So you might pose restrictions on invitations, for example that a minimum of x EA-member have to agree on the quality (open for discussion as is everything in this post…) before a NON-EA member is admitted to the EA member group.
- EA members can (but don't have to) post reviews of the releases in "recommended" section. So a film will initially appear review-less in the recommended section, but over time, quality reviews can appear.

You can further fine-tune this mechanism by using site-admins (SA's):
- SA's can remove a review if they think it is below quality,
- SA's can remove a release from the recommed section if they think it is below quality,
- SA's can demote an EA member to NON-EA member status, if they think the quality of their contributions is constantly below standard…
- Yes, SA's are dictators, deal with it! Your free to go to a different site with your film if you don't agree…

The advantages of a system like this:
- No continuous reviewing of all entries necessary!
- There is a constant stream / trickle of quality new films in the "recommended" section.
- The EA-group continues to grow, purely based on merit!

Disadvantages:
- The films that appear in the recommended section might be different: some releases that currently don't make this selection, will. Other that now appear in this section, won't.
- The general quality of the releases in the "recommended" section will probably be a bit lower than now.


There are lot's of different implementations of this idea possible, but the gist of this is:
- relieve the current review panel of their burden,
- focus on the quality of the ANIMATOR, not (primarily) on the quality of the RELEASE!

Thoughts, anyone?

Last edited by boardron (June 22, 2011 (11:15am))

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  • Location: Welcome to Darkmoor
  • Joined: March 27, 2011

Re: Review Panel Reform

That's actually a pretty good idea. mini/smile
Still, some people would get mad if they believe they should be a EA, but they won't let them in. If that does happen, I hope the EA group isn't too tight. But it would be horrible if it got too big as well.

-Squid | Twitter | Welcome to Darkmoor

Squid's Website

  • Location: LA County, CA
  • Joined: March 11, 2009

Re: Review Panel Reform

That is a great system, boardon. It gives the panel more time to look for good quality films from unknowns, instead of saying "Okay, which [Hazzat, Brickhead, KG, Mindgame, etc.] short should I review today?" It saves time, and gives unknowns a chance to shine. Great job!