Re: BRAWL 2015 Results!

Yeah, THAC was ok not showing the entries, but can we please see all the entries on a list mini/eek

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Re: BRAWL 2015 Results!

While there is nothing wrong with wanting to see all the results, may I refer you all to this post.

There, Smeagol explains why the results for contests like this are better left to the top 10-ish.
And you're welcome to scroll down in that thread to see the discussion that took place then.

Re: BRAWL 2015 Results!

Congrats to all those who took part and to those who finished in the top 10, especially the winners! mini/smile

Have a nice day! mini/smile

Re: BRAWL 2015 Results!

I just barely made it! mini/bigsmile

Re: BRAWL 2015 Results!

I just have one question, how are we going to have the gift card for the winners ? mini/shifty

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Re: BRAWL 2015 Results!

legocloneaddict wrote:

Will you be making a post of a list going past the top 10?

There will be no results past the top ten. Smeagol explained the reasoning for this better than I ever could in this post.

If you're looking for some feedback on your film, there are a couple of things you can do. One, you can make sure your film is in the release forum where the community can critique your entry and give you tips on where you can improve next time. Second, you can look at the top 10 films and ask yourself "what did this entry do better than my own?", when you identify potential points of improvement, you can learn from that experience and know what to improve next time. I think this will much more valuable to you as a filmmaker instead of being told a place that does not have much of a practical meaning.

MBstudio wrote:

I just have one question, how are we going to have the gift card for the winners ? mini/shifty

Ah yes, I discussed this in the chat, but we all know how that went. mini/dizzy The email you used to submit your entry has been sent to BrickWarriors, they should be contacting you directly on how to get your credit. If they don't send you anything within the next couple of days, just shoot me a PM on BiM.

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Re: BRAWL 2015 Results!

Ok ! Thank you ! mini/smile

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Re: BRAWL 2015 Results!

Fun Sucker wrote:
legocloneaddict wrote:

Will you be making a post of a list going past the top 10?

There will be no results past the top ten. Smeagol explained the reasoning for this better than I ever could in this post.

If you're looking for some feedback on your film, there are a couple of things you can do. One, you can make sure your film is in the release forum where the community can critique your entry and give you tips on where you can improve next time. Second, you can look at the top 10 films and ask yourself "what did this entry do better than my own?", when you identify potential points of improvement, you can learn from that experience and know what to improve next time. I think this will much more valuable to you as a filmmaker instead of being told a place that does not have much of a practical meaning.

(sigh) I understand that the process would take time, and you'd have to sacrifice the judging integrity as well as distracting them from focusing on the best films, but it's just... frustrating, I suppose. It makes it seem like anything below the best is all the same, and that's a bit disheartening, especially for very competitive people like me. I just have this scenario pictured in my head where I enter BRAWL for the next few years and don't get in the top 10 in any of them, therefore not being listed, making it seem like I haven't improved at all, even if I may have, which is where I get back to being frustrated, there's not marker of comparison to improve upon. For example, I'd be the happiest person on Earth if I had gotten 36th place one year and 14th the next, rather than "below 10th" for two years in a row.

This is why I don't participate in THAC, there are so many entries and such a small recognition margin that it seems like it's not worth it, like the guy at the top of that post said. Having the accomplishment of making a brickfilm in under 24 hours is great and all, but for a person like me it's just not enough. And while yes, I could post the film to the forums and get feedback and look at the winner to see what they did right and what I did wrong (which I would've done anyway), it's just not the same as being recognized or even being listed for the work that you've done. I dunno, I'm not trying to come off as an ungrateful brat that doesn't appreciate all the hard work you guys do, nor am I complaining about the circumstances, I'm just... discouraged and feel like expressing my anger/despair/other overreactive feelings in this post. Okay, I'm good now.

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Re: BRAWL 2015 Results!

I agree with legocloneaddict, even though I made the top 10, if I hadn't I would have wanted to see where I placed compared to the rest. Last year you had full results, so I just don't understand why they aren't here this year. Anyways, thank you for the placement, just thought I'd share my opinion.

Re: BRAWL 2015 Results!

As someone who has judged a THAC when we had to place all entries it is very discouraging and really drags the whole process out, often times the films at the.bottom are kind of interchangeable as far as rank would go and you run into people stessing about why X film that does Y good was ranked lower then film Z, and maybe film X should ha e been ranked better then Z but it's so arbitrary and requires an impropotionit amount of work. If rank is the most important thing to you then you are.missing the point of these contests,  it's about getting motivated to start making a film, they are ranked for prize distribution.  If you can't determine if your film making is impoving without ranked contests maybe it's not, you should be able to look at your old work next to your new.work and tell yourself.

Re: BRAWL 2015 Results!

I wasn't involved in judging this contest but I'll give my $0.02 on the general considerations in judging a contest like this:

First, Sloth is right. Actual feedback on the forum and evaluating for yourself if your new films are better than your old ones are better ways of determining your progress as a filmmaker than an 11th+ number ranking that is almost completely arbitrary and subjective for the reasons outlined in my post FunSucker linked. If you read that post, it explains what I'm saying here: it's not that the judges are heartless or lazy, it's that the numbers are mostly meaningless beyond around 10th place; the "noise in the system" increases exponentially as you go lower in the rankings and it becomes arbitrary to try to have a group of people reach meaningful consensus on these lower rankings. The results would be like using the Random.org widget to generate a number between 11 and 36.

It's not simply that we don't want to rank all the entries, it's that it's very hard/arguably impossible to have meaningful rankings beyond about 10th place. Hardly any legitimate video contests I've ever seen outside of this community rank beyond third place, and there's a good reason for that. Sincerely, if you saw how the rankings below 10th place were determined in contests in years past, you'd know that they are meaningless rankings. When we had rankings like that, you could very likely improve and still go down in ranking from one year to the next. That's not encouraging, and it doesn't chart progress or improvement.

Personally, I think contests are fun as long as you approach them in the right spirit, but I don't think comparing yourself to others is a healthy or even effective way to measure your improvement as a filmmaker. What's important, I believe, is to always do the best you can do. As long as you see room for improvement in your own work you'll be able to keep getting better.

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Re: BRAWL 2015 Results!

My two cents: this way, someone doesn't have to get stuck with the last place spot. I imagine for the right people, that could be very discouraging. Better not to find out.

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Re: BRAWL 2015 Results!

Bolded for emphasis.

Sméagol wrote:

Personally, I think contests are fun as long as you approach them in the right spirit, but I don't think comparing yourself to others is a healthy or even effective way to measure your improvement as a filmmaker. What's important, I believe, is to always do the best you can do. As long as you see room for improvement in your own work you'll be able to keep getting better.

Re: BRAWL 2015 Results!

One thing that is lacking is a general consensus of why the film was appealing to the judges and why it was not. This simple ranking gives us no real understanding of why said film made it in to the top ten or not. I feel a comment would be far more constructive than placing all 36+ films in a rank.

  Not to be rude, just my idea.

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Re: BRAWL 2015 Results!

Randomboaz wrote:

One thing that is lacking is a general consensus of why the film was appealing to the judges and why it was not. This simple ranking gives us no real understanding of why said film made it in to the top ten or not. I feel a comment would be far more constructive than placing all 36+ films in a rank.

  Not to be rude, just my idea.

If a contest required all the judges to write feedback for every entry (unprecedented) then it would be very difficult to get an adequately large panel of judges who are worth their salt. Unless they were paid, which would require quite a bit of additional funding that (IMO) is better put to use on prizes.

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Re: BRAWL 2015 Results!

In some previous years for thac and brawl, there have been comments on the top entries, not saying all the entries should be commented on but, maybe each judge pick 15 to comment on. These comments can be very helpful to both know what to try to do in the future, and how to improve. I feel there is a bit of a lack of communication between the judges and the contestants. And it is a bit vague on what the judges are even looking for, if anything.

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Re: BRAWL 2015 Results!

Randomboaz wrote:

One thing that is lacking is a general consensus of why the film was appealing to the judges and why it was not. This simple ranking gives us no real understanding of why said film made it in to the top ten or not. I feel a comment would be far more constructive than placing all 36+ films in a rank.

  Not to be rude, just my idea.

I think that's up to the creator and the community to figure out why it didn't place in the top 10. It's also up to the creator to accept the non-placement, and learn from it and improve upon it. It's up to them to honestly evaluate their film, scrutinizing it, and not lying to themselves about the goodness of it. Sure, it may be a good film, but there is always room for improvement. (I know this, because I have done this many times, and continue to do this with every film I make. Sure, I'm proud of the film I made, but I know that there was something I am not satisfied with, and I will continue to improve until I conquer the problem).

I have tried to comment on every BRAWL film posted on BiM (if I missed one, I apologize, link me and I shall review it) to help the creator understand what their strong points were and how they need to improve. This is also a way to improve: accept people's constructive criticism. Due to the number of great films made for BRAWL, not every one of them can be in the top 10, but don't think for a moment that the films under top 10 weren't good, for there were many fantastic ones! And just because you didn't place in the top 10, don't think that your film was worthless. 10 is a very small number. Think of it as a place you want to go, but it is a long and hard path to get up there.

You may not think that I am really qualified to say anything about not getting top 10 because my video placed 9th, but just last year, my BRAWL film came in 27th (which is really an arbitrary number, but it wasn't in top 10 by any means), and I worked and improved, and got up to 9th. I am still looking to improve, for I know the areas which need improvement.

Randomboaz wrote:

In some previous years for thac and brawl, there have been comments on the top entries, not saying all the entries should be commented on but, maybe each judge pick 15 to comment on. These comments can be very helpful to both know what to try to do in the future, and how to improve. I feel there is a bit of a lack of communication between the judges and the contestants. And it is a bit vague on what the judges are even looking for, if anything.

Why 15? 15 is such an odd number. Do we think that the worst of the worst don't need critique or improvement? I would consider picking 15 entries to comment on to be just as bad as only commenting on the "top entries". Sure, comments are helpful, but I don't think that's a judge's job. If you want to know what they are looking for and what to improve on, just read the criteria for judging:

Judges will consider the following when watching the films: originality, production value (animation, set design, cinematography, sound, etc.), story, and creative interpretation of the theme. While the parts of the film are considered, the most important quality the judges look for is how the film works as a whole.

Wow, that post got long all of the sudden. TL;DR, it's not the judge's job to review, it's up to the creator to be honest with himself and learn how to improve.

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Re: BRAWL 2015 Results!

Randomboaz wrote:

I feel there is a bit of a lack of communication between the judges and the contestants.

But that's typically how it works. The judges fill out a ballot or they discuss amongst themselves and then post their decisions. Sometimes festivals will offer a feedback sheet for pay or something like that, but it's not normal for judges to coddle the entrants with encouragement about what they did well.

I think that is what the Releases forum is for, getting feedback from human beings. Any time you expand the duties of judges beyond judging the films to decide winners, you're going to alienate some of the potential judges with extra labor.

In general (and again I am not speaking specifically about this contest, for which I have no involvement) I'd rather have the best judges who don't really have time to write reviews of 15 films because they're accomplished and busy with other projects, than what I believe would work out to be some kids of the same age and experience level as most of the entrants who can devote the amount of time needed to fulfill a more elaborate proposal.

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Re: BRAWL 2015 Results!

I think ranking the top 10 is a good compromise, although I am surprised there weren't judges comments for even the top 3 ranking films.

BRAWL looks like a really well run and fun contest. It's a shame I always seem to be away for it mini/sad

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Re: BRAWL 2015 Results!

I was waiting until the the results were public before commenting.

Plus, I've been a little busy with fulfilling the documentary kickstarter rewards.